BENJAMIN NORTON: Yeah, and this is a good segue to what I wanted to ask you about, Professor Hudson, which is the economic war on Russia.
And I should say, of course, that today is May 9th. Today is Victory Day in Russia, celebrating the Soviet unx’s victory over Nazi Germany in World War Two. Not the US and British victory over Nazi Germany, the Soviet victory, in which 27 million Soviets died.
And actually I should say that, here on YouTube, in the comment section, there are some Russians who are your fans, Professor Hudson, saying they’re thanking you for your cogent analysis of Russia.
But on the subject of Russia, Professor Hudson, we now have seen that since Russia’s military intervention in Ukraine on February 24th, we saw really what could be referred to as financial shock-and-awe. That’s a term that’s been used.
Just as when the U.S. invaded Iraq, it waged a military shock-and-awe campaign on Iraq. Well, now it is waging economic or financial shock-and-awe on Russia.

本杰明·诺顿:
哈德森教授,这是我想问你的问题的一个很好的过渡,那就是对俄罗斯的经济战。
当然,我应该说,今天是5月9日。今天是俄罗斯的胜利日,庆祝苏联在第二次世界大战中战胜纳粹德国。不是美国和英国战胜纳粹德国,而是苏联的胜利,2700万苏联人死亡。实际上我应该说,在YouTube的评论区,有一些俄罗斯人是你的粉丝,哈德森教授,他们说他们感谢你对俄罗斯的有力分析。
但是关于俄罗斯,哈德森教授,自从2月24日俄罗斯军事干预乌克兰以来,我们看到了真正可以被称为金融冲击和威慑的东西。这是一个被使用过的术语。
就像美国入侵伊拉克时一样,对伊拉克进行了“震慑战争”。现在,它正在对俄罗斯发动经济或金融震慑。

And Russia has been referred to as the most heavily sanctioned country in history. Which I think is probably accurate, although maybe the DPRK, maybe North Korea, is more sanctioned. But I mean we’re talking about levels of sanctions not seen against a country of this size ever.
And you can also refer to it as the contemporary equivalent of medi siege warfare against Russia.
Joe Biden, in a speech in Poland, made it clear what Washington’s goal is: it’s regime change. The U.S. wants to overthrow the Russian government, as it did in the Soviet unx in 1991, and clearly install a a pliant alcoholic neoliberal puppet like Boris Yeltsin.
So can you talk about, from an economic perspective, what do you see as the effects of this economic war on Russia?
And specifically in terms of the concept of decoupling, which you have talked about for years, and you have said that the Western sanctions on Russia and China were accelerating that process of decoupling. And this was before the financial shock-and-awe we’ve seen.

俄罗斯被认为是历史上受制裁最严重的国家。我认为这可能是正确的,尽管也许是朝鲜民主主义人民共和国,也许朝鲜受制裁更多。我的意思是,我们谈论的是从未见过针对如此规模的国家的制裁级别。
你也可以把它看作是当代对俄罗斯的中世纪围城战。
乔·拜登在波兰的一次演讲中明确表示,华盛顿的目标是:政权更迭。美国想要推翻俄罗斯政府,就像1991年苏联所做的那样,并明显地安插一个像鲍里斯·叶利钦(Boris Yeltsin)那样顺从的、酗酒的新自由主义傀儡。
您能从经济的角度谈谈,您认为这场经济战对俄罗斯的影响是什么吗? 特别是脱钩的概念,您已经谈论了多年,您说西方对俄罗斯和中国的制裁加速了脱钩的进程。

So you talked about a move away from this neoliberal globalization where everything is interconnected, or at least capital is interconnected globally, to the creation of a kind of, what you could say is kind of an economic iron curtain.
But how do you see that also in terms of integrating the Eurasian economies more deeply?
And also what is the effect on the European economies, which my impression is that Europe is going to become what you call an economic dead zone, more and more reliant on the U.S., whereas Russia, China, and Iran, and even potentially India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia – we’re seeing much more economic integration of Asia, which is, of course, where the majority of humanity lives.

所以您谈到了一种从一切都相互联系的新自由主义全球化,或者至少是资本在全球范围内相互联系,到创造一种,您可以说是一种经济铁幕的转变。但是,您如何看待这一点,以及如何将欧亚经济更深入地整合起来?
还有它对欧洲经济的影响,我的印象是欧洲将成为你所说的经济死亡区,越来越依赖美国,而俄罗斯、中国和伊朗,甚至可能还有印度、巴基斯坦、孟加拉国和印度尼西亚——我们正在看到亚洲越来越多的经济一体化,当然,亚洲是大多数人类生活的地方。

MICHAEL HUDSON: Well you have used the words shock-and-awe, picking it up from the U.S. statements of shock-and-awe. There hasn’t been any shock-and-awe; there’s been a self-defeating piffle, and laughter.
That’s not all. There was an attempt to grab $300 billion of Russia’s foreign reserves, saying, well, any country that leaves their reserves in American banks or in the American Monetary Fund to stabilize their currency, we can grab if we don’t like their policy.
So the idea was, now Russia is going to go broke. It can’t afford to buy anything without U.S. dollars. And the people are going to get so angry, they’re going to vote against Putin. And then we can pour in our money to twerps like Navalny and other right-wingers who have promised to be the new Yeltsins.
Well, it didn’t work that way. They did grab the $300 billion of Russia’s reserves. Russia immediately said, ok, we have our own money. We now, fortunately, have enough oil and gas that we don’t have to sell to Europe and Germany. If they want to freeze in the dark and let their pipes burst when the weather gets cold, that’s their problem. We’ll sell to India, and China, and other countries.

迈克尔·哈德森:
你使用了“震慑”这个词,这是从美国的“震慑”声明中得来的。但这里没有任何震慑,有的只是弄巧成拙的废话,还有笑声。
这还不是全部。有人试图攫取俄罗斯3000亿美元的外汇储备,说,好吧,任何一个为了稳定货币而把储备存在美国银行或美国货币基金组织的国家,如果我们不喜欢他们的政策,我们就可以攫取。
当时的想法是,现在俄罗斯要破产了。没有美元,它什么都买不起。人们会非常愤怒,他们会投票反对普京。然后我们就可以把钱投给纳瓦尔尼和其他右翼分子,他们承诺要成为新的叶利钦。
但事实并非如此。他们确实攫取了俄罗斯3000亿美元的外汇储备。俄罗斯立即说,好吧,我们有自己的钱。幸运的是,我们现在有足够的石油和天然气,不需要卖给欧洲和德国。如果他们想在黑暗中被冻僵,天气变冷时让水管爆裂,那是他们的问题。我们将向印度、中国和其他国家销售燃料。

And there was, for a few days, the ruble plunged, by saying, uh oh, what is Russia going to do? So all the foreign exchange traders thought, you can trust Biden to have a really brilliant policies.
I think Paul Krugman, the Nobel Prize winner, said Biden is the greatest American president since Roosevelt, or since Truman, that he was so smart. Well, that’s why Krugman got the Nobel Prize, for making statements like that.
So immediately Russia said, well, obviously we can’t get paid in dollars anymore, or in euros, because, you’ll just grab them, so you’ll have to buy oil and gas in rubles. We’re going to price it in our own currency. Just like China had talked about pricing its exports in yuan.
And so what has happened is that immediately the ruble not only recovered, but is now selling at a higher rate than it was before the American sanctions. So there was no shock at all. The Americans felt shock.
The Americans are shocked. The Americans are awed. The Russians are laughing and everything is going their way.
So it’s almost as if – I would not accuse Biden of being on the pay of Russia, and I would not say that the leaders of Congress are the Russian agents, but if they were Russian agents, if they were paid by Russia, they could not have done a better job of helping Russia catalyzing its protectionism that it wouldn’t do itself.

卢布暴跌了好几天,人们说,哦,俄罗斯会怎么做?所有的外汇交易员都认为,拜登的政策非常高明。我记得诺贝尔奖得主保罗·克鲁格曼说过拜登是自罗斯福或杜鲁门以来最伟大的美国总统,他非常聪明。
这就是克鲁格曼获得诺贝尔奖的原因,因为他做出了这样的声明。
然而俄罗斯马上说,显然我们不能再用美元或欧元支付了,因为你刚刚攫取了它们,所以你必须用卢布购买石油和天然气。我们将用本国货币来定价。就像中国曾谈论过用人民币对其出口商品定价一样。
所以现在的情况是,卢布不仅立即反弹,而且现在销售的速度比美国制裁之前还要快,所以根本没有震动。美国人感到震惊。
美国人震惊了。美国人被吓到了。俄罗斯人在笑,一切都按照他们的方式进行。我不会指责拜登受俄罗斯收买,我也不会说国会领导人是俄罗斯特工,但如果他们是俄罗斯特工,如果他们拿了俄罗斯的钱,那么他们在帮助俄罗斯推动贸易保护主义方面做得不能更好了,而这些俄罗斯自己根本做不到。
事实是,普京总统和他周围的许多人仍然是新自由主义者。我的意思是,他们在90年代以新自由主义者的身份开始。

They began by hoping that they could make an arrangement with Germany and Europe, that Europe would develop their industry and make Russia as efficient an economy as Germany or the United States. Well, obviously that hasn’t happened.
All the same, they didn’t think of imposing protective tariffs as the United States did. They didn’t protect their agriculture. They bought grain, and cheese, and other agricultural products from the Baltics, and from other countries.
Well, now that, once the Americans put on the sanctions, beginning already under the Trump administration, all of a sudden Russia had to produce its own food.
And it did. It made the investment. It is now the largest agricultural exporter in the world, not a food-deficit country. It’s not importing any more cheese from Lithuania and the Baltics. It has its own cheese segment.
And the sanctions are forcing Russia to do exactly what the United States, Germany, and other protectionist countries did in the 19th century, developing their own industry by isolating it from low-priced foreign imports that would be priced so low that the Russians otherwise could not afford to make the investment in factories, plants, equipment, research, and development.

一开始,他们希望能与德国和欧洲达成协议,希望欧洲能发展他们的工业,让俄罗斯成为像德国和美国一样高效的经济体。很明显,这并没有发生。
尽管如此,他们没有像美国那样考虑征收保护性关税。他们没有保护自己的农业。他们从波罗的海和其他国家购买谷物、奶酪和其他农产品。
现在,一旦美国开始实施制裁(从特朗普政府开始),突然之间,俄罗斯不得不自己生产粮食,它反倒可以自给自足了。它现在是世界上最大的农产品出口国,而不是一个粮食短缺的国家。不再从立陶宛和波罗的海国家进口奶酪,它有自己的奶酪。
制裁迫使俄罗斯做了美国、德国和其他保护主义国家在19世纪所做的事情,发展自己的工业,将其与廉价的外国进口产品隔离开来,因为这些产品的价格非常低,否则俄罗斯人负担不起在工厂、设备、研究和开发方面的投资。

So what the United States has done is actually catalyze Russia moving together.
And also, for three or four years, I have been talking with Russians, and with the Chinese, and other countries about the need to de-dollarize. If you want to develop your own economy, you have to develop your economy in your own interest with public spending and planning, independent from the United States.
Well, now everybody thought that, well, in a few years it may take a decade for China, Russia, Iran, all these countries to break away from the U.S. But America said, we’re going to help you, we’re going to speed up the breakaway process. We’re going to isolate you. So you’ve got to band together against us.
So that’s exactly what it has done. You can just imagine how the Russians are crying all the way to the bank about this.
And how China is watching what the Americans are doing to Russia, and listening to President Biden saying, you know, Russia is not our real enemy, our real enemy of China. And when we’re finished with Russia, then we’re going to go against China and do the same thing to it.
Well you can imagine what this is leading the Chinese government to try to plan to be sufficiently independent from the United States, so that similar type sanctions will not hurt it.

美国所做的实际上是促使俄罗斯一致行动。
此外,三四年来,我一直在与俄罗斯、中国和其他国家讨论去美元化的必要性。如果你想发展自己的经济,你就必须依靠公共支出和计划,独立于美国。
现在每个人都认为,好吧,在几年内,中国,俄罗斯,伊朗,所有这些国家可能需要十年才能脱离美国。结果美国说,我们会帮助你们,我们会加快脱离的进程。所以你们得联合起来对付我们。这就是它所做的。
中国在观察美国人对俄罗斯做了什么,在倾听拜登总统的讲话——你知道的,俄罗斯不是我们(美国)真正的敌人,真正的敌人是中国。当我们解决了俄罗斯,我们就会针对中国,对中国做同样的事情。
你可以想象,这就是导致中国试图充分独立于美国的原因,这样一来类似的制裁就不会伤害到它。

And President in the last few weeks has said we’ve got to make China as independent as possible. We’ve got to make our own computer chips. We’ve got to not depend on the United States for anything, except maybe Walt Disney movies. That’s basically about it.
So it’s as if – you know, I had mentioned earlier that finance lives in the short term. American policy, being financial policy, lives in the short term. And it’s looking at if it can make a quick, a quick victory, and forget about what’s going to happen next.
I’m told that, years ago, already from the war with Iran, and then Iraq and Syria, in the State Department, if there were Arab specialists who spoke Arabic, they were all fired. Because they said, well, if you can speak Arabic, you must’ve learned Arabic because you’re sympathetic with them. You’re fired. We won’t have anyone who can read Arabic here.
Well, now in the last decade or so, they fired all the Russia specialists from the the State Department and CIA, saying, well, if you can read Russian, why would you want to learn Russian? You must like something in Russia. You wanted to learn it. You’re fired.
So they have people who have no idea of what’s happening in Russia, no idea what’s happening in these other countries. And they’re blinded by their ideology.

中国在过去几周表示,我们要让自己尽可能独立。我们得自己做电脑芯片。我们不能依赖美国的任何东西,除了沃尔特·迪斯尼的电影。基本上就是这样。
这就好像,我之前提到过,金融是短期的。美国的政策,作为金融政策,是短视的。它在考虑是否能快速取得胜利,而忘记接下来会发生什么。
几年前有人告诉我,在与伊朗,伊拉克和叙利亚的战争中,在国务院,如果有会说阿拉伯语的阿拉伯专家,他们都已被解雇。因为有人说,如果你会说阿拉伯语,你一定会同情他们,所以你被炒了。我们这里不会有懂阿拉伯语的人。
在过去的十年里,他们解雇了国务院和中央情报局的所有俄罗斯专家,说,好吧,如果你能读懂俄语,你为什么想学俄语?你一定喜欢俄罗斯的某些东西。你想学习它。所以你被炒了。
所以他们的人不知道俄罗斯发生了什么,不知道其他国家发生了什么。他们被自己的意识形态蒙蔽了双眼。

And if anyone would say, wait a minute now, public planning and making education a public utility is actually making them more competitive, well, that’s against the ideology. That’s not the corporate type.
And they’re taught, well, we really can’t trust people, maybe they’re tending toward socialism, and they’re out the door.
So you’re having American policy pretty much run by the blind, and the Europeans are simply taking orders, and money in little white envelopes from the United States, to just show their loyalty, and basically are willing to spend three to seven times as much for their energy, for their liquefied natural gas and oil, by buying from the United States, than they are by a long-term contract with Russia.
Europe is willing to spend now $5 trillion on putting together ports that can handle shipping tankers for liquefied natural gas instead of relying on the Russian pipeline, the Nord Stream Two, that’s already there.
So Europe is making an enormous sacrifice. If it doesn’t have Russian gas, and it refuses to pay rubles, it says, if you don’t give us our gas and oil for free, you’re attacking us, because we’ve been getting all of your oil and gas for free, because all the dollars, all the money we pay, you’ve recycled to the United States in your foreign reserves. Thank heavens, the U.S. can grab it all. If you don’t continue to give it to us for free, then you’re attacking us.
To the United States, other countries protecting their economy, other countries trying to raise their living standards, and especially other countries undertaking land reform, are viewed as enemies of the United States, because they’re an enemy of the neoliberal American financial system.

如果有人说,等一下,公共规划和公共事业实际上使教育更有竞争力,所以这与意识形态相违背。
这不是公司会去做的事。
他们被教导,我们真的不能相信人们,(因为)他们可能倾向于社会主义,他们需要被被扫地出门。因此,美国的政策基本上是由瞎子操纵的,欧洲人只是接受美国的命令,接受装在白色小信封里的钱,以显示他们的忠诚,它们基本上都愿意从美国购买成本三到七倍于与俄罗斯签订长期合同的能源、液化天然气和石油。
欧洲现在愿意花费5万亿美元来建设港口,以处理运送液化天然气的油轮,而不是依赖俄罗斯已经存在的北溪二号(Nord Stream 2)管道。
因此,欧洲正在做出巨大的牺牲,如果它没有俄罗斯的天然气,而且它拒绝支付卢布的话。它说,如果你们不免费给我们天然气和石油,你们就是在攻击我们,因为我们一直都免费得到了你们所有的石油和天然气,因为所有的美元,我们支付的所有钱,都被循环到美国的外汇储备中。感谢上帝,美国可以掌控一切。如果你不继续免费提供,那你就是在攻击我们。
对美国来说,其他国家保护他们的经济,其他国家试图提高他们的生活水平,特别是其他进行土地改革的国家,都被视为美国的敌人,因为他们是美国新自由主义金融体系的敌人。

And the idea of the unipolar world where the United States gets all of the profits, and rents, and interests of the world economy, just as ancient Rome stripped its provinces by getting all of their wealth and income for themselves, not producing it at home, while impoverishing their own domestic population. It’s just an exact parallel.
So Europe is willing to say, well, ok, if we don’t have a Russian gas, well, that means that our chemical companies cannot buy the gas to make the fertilizer to make our crops grow, and our agricultural productivity is going to fall by about 50%.
We’re also going to spend a lot more money on America’s military, NATO arms to support NATO. So higher food, higher military spending, higher energy costs.
This ends Europe as an industrial rival to Asia, and Eurasia, I should say, because now the Chinese Belt and Road Initiative and other spending investment, capital investment, throughout Western Asia is creating a new productive plant that is not only self-sufficient, but is leaving the United States and Europe without any industrial competitive power. They’ve priced themselves out of the world market. They’re no longer competitive.
So the world is developing. And I’m sure the only way that the NATO countries can fight against it is militarily, by threatening to bomb. But they can’t fight economically. They can’t fight financially. They tried by disconnecting Russia from the SWIFT system. It put it in its own system very quickly.

美国的单极世界的想法是,得到所有的利润和租金、世界经济和利益, 就像古罗马掠夺各省的财富和收入,而不是在国内搞生产,使本国人口陷入贫困一样。这毫无二致。
所以欧洲很乐意地说,好吧,如果我们没有俄罗斯的天然气,那就意味着我们的化学公司无法购买天然气来生产化肥以便让我们的农作物生长,我们的农业生产力将下降50%。我们还将在美国军队和北约武器上投入更多资金,以支持北约——所以更高的食品,更高的军事开支,更高的能源成本。
我会说,这结束了欧洲作为亚洲和欧亚大陆工业竞争对手的地位,因为现在中国的“一带一路”倡议和其他支出投资,资本投资,正在整个西亚建立一个新的生产工厂,这不仅可以让当地自给自足,而且使美国和欧洲失去了任何工业竞争力。他们把自己的价格定得太高,使自己在世界市场上被排挤出去。他们不再具有竞争力。
所以世界在发展。我确信北约国家唯一能对付它的方法是军事上的——通过威胁轰炸,但它们无法在经济上应对,它们无法在经济上争斗。他们试图切断俄罗斯与SWIFT体系的连接,这促使俄罗斯迅速投入到自己的贸易支付体系当中。

It really is left without a strategy, except that it’s done a wonderful job of controlling the public relations dimension of this war, making it appear as if somehow other countries are the aggressors, in not letting America exploit them, and making it appear as if Russia is the aggressor in Ukraine, instead of NATO prodding and prodding Russia to say, we’re going to capture your port at Crimea, and we’re going to attack the Russian-speakers if you don’t fight back, and we’re going to keep bombing them year after year, from 2014 on, we’re going to keep bombing them until you protect them.
So all of this is treated as if America is purely defending itself. Well, this is what the Nazis said in World War Two. Hitler and Goebbels said, we can always mobilize a population to support our war by saying it’s a war to defend ourselves.
And that’s how the United States in Europe are doing it. Not only are they pulling a strategy out of Goebbels’ Nazi book, but a few weeks ago, Germany went to the museums, the military museums, where they had the old Panzer tanks from World War Two, and they sent the Panzer tanks, the Nazi tanks from World War II, to Ukraine, saying this is symbolic, now we can fight Russia with the same German Nazi tanks run by the neo-Nazi groups, that Zelensky is supporting, the same Nazi fight against Russia. We can reenact World War Two with the same tanks, even symbolically, to show that this is a fight of Naziism, and neoliberalism, against Eurasia.

这实际上是没有战略可言的,只是它在控制这场战争的公共关系方面做得很好,让它看起来像其他国家都是侵略者,而不是看起来是美国在利用它们。让它看起来像俄罗斯是入侵乌克兰的侵略者,而不是北约在逼迫促俄罗斯,说,我们将占领你在克里米亚的港口,如果你们不反击,我们就会攻击讲俄语的人,我们会年复一年地轰炸他们。从2014年开始,我们一直在轰炸他们,直到你们来保护他们。
所以所有这一切都被视为美国纯粹是在自卫。这是纳粹在第二次世界大战时说的话。希特勒和戈培尔说,我们总是可以动员人民支持我们的战争,只要我们声称这是一场保卫我们自己的战争。这就是美国在欧洲的做法。
他们不仅从戈培尔的纳粹书中拿走了这一策略,而且几周前,德国人去了博物馆——军事博物馆,那里有二战时期的旧坦克,他们把二战时期的纳粹坦克送往乌克兰,称这是象征性的,现在我们可以用泽连斯基支持的、新纳粹组织运营的德国纳粹坦克来对抗俄罗斯,那个对抗俄罗斯的、同一个纳粹。我们可以用同样的坦克,甚至象征性地,重演二战,以表明这是一场纳粹主义和新自由主义 vs 欧亚大陆的战争。